Archives: Telepathy and Shipbuilding

Legolas Research and Fan Club Thread Page #5-6

Legolas and Gimli sailing to Aman

(Telepathy and Shipbuilding)

and question about mortals in Aman

Continuation of discussion titled:

Strange and Unique Friendship

From Ithildin

My turn to ask questions...
I think Gimli wanted to meet Galadriel again, and that was the driving force behind his leaving Middle-earth. Anyone have a clue as to how he (or Legolas) could have received notification of "permission" for Gimli to come to Aman?

Also I'm of the impression that for a mortal to go to Aman did not make them immortal, they just got to spend what time they had left there in the Blessed Realm. Can anyone confirm or correct this theory?

Cuio mae
Ithildin
Elf Member, FoL

__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing,” said Legolas. TTT

From Morgan

quote:

Also I'm of the impression that for a mortal to go to Aman did not make them immortal, they just got to spend what time they had left there in the Blessed Realm. Can anyone confirm or correct this theory?

I do remember in another thread mention of this. The poster stated that mortals who were admitted to Aman did not become immortal. In fact the very admittance which brought them healing, also shortened what remained of their natural lifespan. But when the time came for their passing, it would be one of profound peace.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us.

From Bacchus

Regarding mortals in the Undying Lands, Tolkien stated (I think in Letter 246) that Frodo went to the West seeking not immortality, but healing and rest. Indeed, he opined that a mortal, there in the presence of the Ainur and the Eldar, would burn out more quickly and thus pass sooner than in the mortal lands. Of course, what time remained to him would have been passed in bliss. I can see no reason why these statements would not also apply to Gimli.

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Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

From Rain

Re: Re: Strange and unique friendship

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin

My turn to ask questions...
I think Gimli wanted to meet Galadriel again, and that was the driving force behind his leaving Middle-earth. Anyone have a clue as to how he (or Legolas) could have received notification of "permission" for Gimli to come to Aman?

This is from memory, so bear with me please. IIRC somewhere in the appendices to LOTR I read that Gimli left ME because of his love for Legolas and because he wanted to see Galadriel again. Galadriel may have been the one to 'support' Gimli's entrance into Aman, but I have no clue whether Legolas, or Gimli for that matter, received notification of permission. I always got the impression that Legolas and Gimli left ME with a 'we'll see what happens attitude', but now thinking about it I don't think that's correct. Legolas would not have taken Gimli with him unless he was sure that Gimli would get in. I mean, he was even willing to wait until Gimli's death to visit Fangorn if Treebeard had not been ok with a dwarf visiting the forest. So I guess that unless Legolas was sure that Gimli would be accepted, he would have waited until his friend died before he left - in the same way that they waited until Aragorn died.

From Bacchus

How did they know that Gimli would be accepted? An interesting question. I cannot answer it except through pure speculation. There was a Palantir at Eressea, but I consider this method unlikely. Perhaps Ulmo communicated the permission to Legolas. This idea is appealing because it dovetails nicely with Legolas' sea-longing. Also, there is the precedent of Ulmo's communication to Turgon and Finrod. Of course, I have no evidence of this, but the idea appeals to me nonetheless.

From Rain

quote:

Originally posted by Bacchus
How did they know that Gimli would be accepted? An interesting question. I cannot answer it except through pure speculation. There was a Palantir at Eressea, but I consider this method unlikely. Perhaps Ulmo communicated the permission to Legolas. This idea is appealing because it dovetails nicely with Legolas' sea-longing. Also, there is the precedent of Ulmo's communication to Turgon and Finrod. Of course, I have no evidence of this, but the idea appeals to me nonetheless.

I like this idea. It seems to make more sense than the Palantir - I think if the Valar and everyone at Aman wanted Legolas to know that Gimli had been accepted, I would think that they would use something more god-like, thus, getting Ulmo to talk to them. As I said before, I'm only half-way through the Sil, so I'd like to ask whether there are other instances where Ulmo speaks to the elves other than Turgon and Finrod - is it something very rare or is it feasible?

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Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."

From Bacchus

He also spoke to Tuor, but I won't get into more specifics because of the spoiler issue. Offhand I can't recall other specific instances, but the Teleri were very close to Osse and Unien as well.

From Rain

quote:

Originally posted by Bacchus
He also spoke to Tuor, but I won't get into more specifics because of the spoiler issue. Offhand I can't recall other specific instances, but the Teleri were very close to Osse and Unien as well.

Thanks...but you shouldn't really worry about spoilers - sometimes I get lost reading the index because I like the details so much (I know I'm sad) and there are tonnes of spoilers there. Anyway the stories are beautiful in their own right and not just for the "I wonder what comes next" feeling. Back to the issue at hand - so you think that Ulmo informing Legolas is not that far-fetched. I wanted to know whether Ulmo is silent for thousands of years, and then all of a sudden he decides to talk to Legolas because a dwarf is coming to town

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Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."

From Bacchus

Well, it's hard to say how farfetched it is. We don't know how many ships were sailing East, for that matter. The communication could have been as prosaic as elves on eastward sailing ships.

From Elanor Gamgee

Sailing West together
And now I'd like to turn to that very story.

quote:

Originally posted by Bacchus:
How did they know that Gimli would be accepted? An interesting question. I cannot answer it except through pure speculation. There was a Palantir at Eressea, but I consider this method unlikely. Perhaps Ulmo communicated the permission to Legolas. This idea is appealing because it dovetails nicely with Legolas' sea-longing. Also, there is the precedent of Ulmo's communication to Turgon and Finrod. Of course, I have no evidence of this, but the idea appeals to me nonetheless.

Bacchus, do you believe in telepathy? You'd better do, because it's exactly what you've just demonstrated! Well, in case you don't buy this idea, let me tell that there is evidence of Ulmo's involvement, though indirect.
It's quite safe to assume that Legolas, a woodland elf as he was, could be a very good carpenter; it can be also safe to assume that he might be capable of making a decent river boat. However, it seems almost implausible that Legolas, alone, had skills enough to build a sea-faring ship. (Cf. Cirdan and his shipyard in the Havens.) So here I see the direct evidence of the Valar being involved - Ulmo instructed Legolas on the craft of ship-building. (It could be Osse, but it doesn't really matter )

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin:
I think Gimli wanted to meet Galadriel again, and that was the driving force behind his leaving Middle-earth. Anyone have a clue as to how he (or Legolas) could have recieved notification of "permission" for Gimli to come to Aman?

I would respectfully disagree Of course, desire to see Galadriel was a very important motive, but I don't think it was the motive. Here is my theory:
While staying in Minas Tirith Legolas made a promise (mostly to himself, though I'm making a whole story out of it) not to leave while any of his mortal friends abode in Middle-earth. Little did he know how it would affect him in the future...
During his stay in Ithilien all but one of his mortal friends had died bringing him almost unbearable pain. After Aragorn's passing Legolas had to realize with dread that Gimli was the only one still alive; he also realized that he himself could not survive Gimli's dying in his arms. So, he could not sail, leaving his friend behind, and he could not bear the anguish of parting from him if he stayed. He decided to relinquish his own life to spare himself that final torment; he prayed to Elbereth asking forgiveness (the Elves consider death by one's own will fainthearted and a taint of the soul). Suddenly he received a message in his heart that he was allowed to sail West and to bring Gimli with him. Later on Ulmo appeared to instruct him on ship-building.
Trying to persuade Gimli to follow him Legolas might use Galadriel as an argument, though I believe that Gimli would agree anyway knowing that for his friend it was the matter of life and death.

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Rain

Re: Sailing West

quote:

Trying to persuade Gimli to follow him Legolas might use Galadriel as an argument, though I believe that Gimli would agree anyway knowing that for his friend it was the matter of life and death.

I liked your explanation with regards to Ulmo teaching Legolas how to build a sea-faring ship. Though I don't agree that Legolas would use Galadriel as an excuse to get Gimli to go with him - ok, I have two reasons:
Reason 1: I think Galadriel was still very much alive in Gimli's heart. He still wanted to see her and he still loved her, so I don't think Legolas needed to remind him about her.
Reason 2: I don't think that Gimli went with Legolas just because for Legolas it was a matter of life and death. I believe that Gimli went with him because he actully wanted to be with his friend. The way you state it Elanor, it seems that the friendship was stronger on Legolas' side, and that Gimli went with him only because it was so important for Legolas. I think that if Legolas did not want to be separated from his friend, then it was the same for Gimli.
I believe that Gimli sailed west for love - love for Legolas and love for Galadriel. Hope this doesn't sound soppy

From Luthien Undomiel

You've all put forth some really great points! I thoroughly enjoy reading this thread every time I open it up.

quote:

Originally posted by Bacchus:

Perhaps Ulmo communicated the permission to Legolas. This idea is appealing because it dovetails nicely with Legolas' sea-longing. Also, there is the precedent of Ulmo's communication to Turgon and Finrod. Of course, I have no evidence of this, but the idea appeals to me nonetheless.

I would have never thought of this, but I like the idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor:

During his stay in Ithilien all but one of his mortal friends had died bringing him almost unbearable pain. After Aragorn's passing Legolas had to realize with dread that Gimli was the only one still alive; he also realized that he himself could not survive Gimli's dying in his arms. So, he could not sail, leaving his friend behind, and he could not bear the anguish of parting from him if he stayed. He decided to relinquish his own life to spare himself that final torment; he prayed to Elbereth asking forgiveness (the Elves consider death by one's own will fainthearted and a taint of the soul). Suddenly he received a message in his heart that he was allowed to sail West and to bring Gimli with him.

Interesting, but I'm not sure I follow the whole thing. How would his bringing Gimli to the West with him absolve him of the pain of Gimli's death? Wouldn't he have had to face it someday anyway?

From Morgan

Re: Strange and unique friendship - an attempt to summary

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
[b]Sailing West together
And now I'd like to turn to that very story.

Bacchus, do you believe in telepathy? You'd better do, because it's exactly what you've just demonstrated! Well, in case you don't buy this idea, let me tell that there is evidence of Ulmo's involvement, though indirect.
It's quite safe to assume that Legolas, a woodland elf as he was, could be a very good carpenter; it can be also safe to assume that he might be capable of making a decent river boat. However, it seems almost implausible that Legolas, alone, had skills enough to build a sea-faring ship. (Cf. Cirdan and his shipyard in the Havens.) So here I see the direct evidence of the Valar being involved - Ulmo instructed Legolas on the craft of ship-building. (It could be Osse, but it doesn't really matter )
[B]

Elanor,
I definitely concur regarding the telepathy in general, though I never imagined the instruction to come from Ulmo. I had always assumed that Legolas was assisted in the building of his ship by fellow Elves already skilled in such matters.

quote:

While staying in Minas Tirith Legolas made a promice (mostly to himself, though I'm making a whole story out of it) not to leave while any of his mortal friends abode in Middle-earth. Little did he know how it would affect him in the future...

I can certainly see him doing this. The length of one mortal lifetime would seem fleeting to an Elf, but in the circumstances, with the awakening of his sea longing, for Legolas it could also have seemed like an eternity. Maybe in the end, with only Gimli left, Legolas could no longer restrain his desire to sail West. He certainly wasn't prepared to leave Gimli behind, and perhaps on account of "services rendered" by Gimli during the time of the Fellowship, the grace of the Valar was extended to the dwarf and he was permitted to pass across the sea.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."

From Rain

quote:

But how did Legolas know, that he could cross the sea with Gimli? Through telepathy?
Considering my limited knowledge with regards to ME and its history, who were the elves who could help Legolas with building the ship. Were they the ones he brought with him from Mirkwood, or any elves that might have been there from Rivendell or Lorien?
I know, I'm asking too many questions

__________________
Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."

From Elanor Gamgee

Re: Re: Strange and unique friendship - an attempt to summary

quote:

Originally posted by Rain

I liked your explanation with regards to Ulmo teaching Legolas how to build a sea-faring ship. Though I don't agree that Legolas would use Galadriel as an excuse to get Gimli to go with him - ok, I have two reasons:
Reason 1: I think Galadriel was still very much alive in Gimli's heart. He still wanted to see her and he still loved her, so I don't think Legolas needed to remind him about her.
Reason 2: I don't think that Gimli went with Legolas just because for Legolas it was a matter of life and death. I believe that Gimli went with him because he actully wanted to be with his friend. The way you state it Elanor, it seems that the friendship was stronger on Legolas' side, and that Gimli went with him only because it was so important for Legolas. I think that if Legolas did not want to be separated from his friend, then it was the same for Gimli.
I believe that Gimli sailed west for love - love for Legolas and love for Galadriel. Hope this doesn't sound soppy

Rain,
I ought to have replied long before. Unfortunately, the brief minutes I can spend before the palantir do not belong to me (in plain words, I'm at work) and Elanor, helpless hobbit maid she is, can do nothing to protect herself from the Orc raids, both real and virtual.
However:
No, your reasoning does not sound soppy; it sounds beautiful IMHO I'm sorry, I've expressed myself clumsily writing in haste. I totally agree with you - Gimli still loved and revered Galadriel, as well as he loved Legolas, and he would follow his friend unconditionally. I'd even say that for Gimli Legolas came first, Galadriel - second.
Still what I mean is that there was certain miscommunication between the two friends; IMHO it was inevitable (I'll try to elaborate on it in a following post, if I manage ). So, it was Legolas' point of view (in my interpretation, of course) that I tried to render. He knew (or he believed he knew) how difficult it would be for Gimli to part from Middle-earth and settle among the Elves. In fact, it was such a unique case that a chronist of Gondor (who made this note in the Red Book) could not believe it true (sorry, can't quote, no books at hand. Give me a shout if you need the quote, I'll try to accommodate.) OK, Legolas knowing how hard it could be for Gimli to sail, and being himself disturbed, sorrowful and insecure, used Galadriel as a pretext to convince Gimli come along, although there was no need to do it, Gimli would follow anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Rain
But how did Legolas know, that he could cross the sea with Gimli? Through telepathy?
Considering my limited knowledge with regards to ME and its history, who were the elves who could help Legolas with building the ship. Were they the ones he brought with him from Mirkwood, or any elves that might have been there from Rivendell or Lorien?
I know, I'm asking too many questions

I think I may try and answer at least some of them.
Yes, I believe it was through telepathy - he prayed to Elbereth (Varda) and received her answer by thought. "Physically" it might come in many ways - he might simply know that Gimli was allowed to the Blessed Realm, or he might hear a beautiful voice speaking to him and explaining the situation. Personally, I'm more in favour of the second option - it seems more "godlike" and dramatic.

quote:

Originally posted by Morgan
Elanor,
I definitely concur regarding the telepathy in general, though I never imagined the instruction to come from Ulmo. I had always assumed that Legolas was assisted in the building of his ship by fellow Elves already skilled in such matters.

Sorry, Morgan, I would disagree with the Elvish option.
IMHO it's quite safe to say that by the end of the TA, beginning ot the Fourth the only Elves in Middle-earth qualified to build sea-faring sheeps where the Falathrim (people of Cirdan). It is quite unlikely that any of them lived in Thranduil's realm. Most of the Silvan elves had never come anywhere near the Sea; there could be Falathrim among those Sindar who followed Thranduil after the fall of Arvernien, but I don't think they would do it. Among all the Sindar they were most enamoured of the Sea and it's hard for me to believe that any of them would leave a sea-shore for an inland forest. So, I hold Ulmo theory as the most likely and most romantic

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Elanor Gamgee

quote:

Originally posted by Luthien Undomiel
... Interesting, but I'm not sure I follow the whole thing. How would his bringing Gimli to the West with him absolve him of the pain of Gimli's death? Wouldn't he have had to face it someday anyway?..

Of course he would, but the consequences for him facing it in Aman would be far less severe, IMHO. Tolkien often compared Aman to paradise for the Elves; it was a place where they could enjoy life in full and exercise all their artistic and "scientific" talents. For Legolas specifically it would mean, first, support and sympathy from his friends when he would need it most, and second, a lot of positive distraction, which would help him to cope with his grief.

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make