Continued from Discussion:

From Kirinki54

Re: The very best of Legolas

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
My next moment is much more poignant; in fact, it's my favourite Legolas moment in the whole book, when Legolas sings his song of the sea. I cannot but marvel that enormous intensity of emotions expressed so sparingly and with such dignity.
To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.
West, west away the round sun is falling.
Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling,
The voices of my people that have gone before me?
I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me;
For our days are ending and our years failing.
I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing.
Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling,
Sweet are the voices in the Lost Isle calling,
In Eressea, in Elvenhome that no man can discover,
Where the leaves fall not; land of my people for ever!"

I quite agree that this passage and the song captures the essence of Legolas as the individual he has become after all the adventures of the Quest is over! It is awesome!

Any idea what bore refers to? To be born or to be bored ?
If the former, does it give a clue as to the possible limits of his birth date?
If the latter, does he really mean that the woods are boring him? Why then found another woodland realm, albeit for only a 'short' period of time?

The more I think about this song, the more I ponder the sea-longing that got to Legolas. Apparently it seems to be not only the sea itself that brings forth this longing of going to the sea and sail to the Undying Lands.
But rather that to Legolas it represents Elven-kind and all those that had already gone; twice it is repeated that he can hear their voices calling. So it would seem that he longs to join those people.

I think that most of his own Elven people would indeed stay on in ME until they faded, and never cross the sea? So why does the sea bring forth such a longing to be with his distant relatives? Going to the Undying Lands per se is more easy to understand. Any thoughts on this?

The line of Legolas that precedes his song also gives rise to a couple of questions:

quote:

'And I,' said Legolas, 'shall walk in the woods of this fair land, which is rest enough. In days to come, if my Elven-lord allows, some of our folk shall remove hither; and when we come it shall be blessed, for a while. For a while: a month, a life, a hundred years of Men. But Anduin is near, and Anduin leads down to the Sea. To the Sea!'

A funny expression, to refer to his father as his 'Elven-lord'! A common honorific or a hint of a certain lack of affection and closeness?

I note that he does not say to ask Aragorn for permission, but perhaps he had already done so?

Funny also that although Legolas speaks to a company that apparently consist of four Hobbits, one Dwarf and one Istar/Maia, he uses the timespan of Men to describe his coming stay in Ithilien:

quote:

For a while: a month, a life, a hundred years of Men.

There seemed to be none of all the noble Men present by then as the friends of the Company told each other of their tales. So why use Men as a measure?

__________________
'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees that do not die.'

From Luthien Undomiel

quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54:
Any idea what bore refers to? To be born or to be bored?
If the former, does it give a clue as to the possible limits of his birth date?
If the latter, does he really mean that the woods are boring him? Why then found another woodland realm, albeit for only a 'short' period of time?

Am quite sure that Legolas Greenleaf could never be bored in woods of any sort. "Bore" here probably means to "give birth to and support". As in the term "born and bred".

quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54 :
I think that most of his own Elven people would indeed stay on in ME until they faded, and never cross the sea? So why does the sea bring forth such a longing to be with his distant relatives? Going to the Undying Lands per se is more easy to understand. Any thoughts on this?

I suppose he would want to be among his people, meaning the Elves as a collective whole. I've always wondered at the difference between him and the rest of Thranduil's folk, in terms of desire (to sail over the sea.) If he had never heard the gulls, would he have stayed behind and lived in relative bliss? I can't say any more on this as I'm not sure.

I've just gotten Unfinished Tales and the first three HoME books and I'm resisting the urge to look up Legolas in the index and read those pages first. So if they hold any more clues on this matter, I'll have to wait and see. Good questions Kirinki but I'll leave them to one of the founders to tackle.

From Ithildin

Re:The very best of Legolas

quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
I quite agree that this passage and the song captures the essence of Legolas as the individual he has become after all the adventures of the Quest is over! It is awesome!
Any idea what bore refers to? To be born or to be bored ?
If the former, does it give a clue as to the possible limits of his birth date?
If the latter, does he really mean that the woods are boring him? Why then found another woodland realm, albeit for only a 'short' period of time?

I'm sure, as Luthien Undomiel pointed out, that bore here would be equivalent to the definition of "bore as in born." I believe he is simply referring to his heritage as woodland Elf. I don't see any evidence that he finds the woods boring - remember his fascination with Fangorn? IIRC he also said something to the effect that he/his people never grew tired of seeing new trees.

quote:

The more I think about this song, the more I ponder the sea-longing that got to Legolas. Apparently it seems to be not only the sea itself that brings forth this longing of going to the sea and sail to the Undying Lands.
But rather that to Legolas it represents Elven-kind and all those that had already gone; twice it is repeated that he can hear their voices calling. So it would seem that he longs to join those people.

I think that most of his own Elven people would indeed stay on in ME until they faded, and never cross the sea? So why does the sea bring forth such a longing to be with his distant relatives? Going to the Undying Lands per se is more easy to understand. Any thoughts on this?

The sea-longing the Elves experienced was a result of the Valar calling all of the Elves to Valinor long ago, so I see the longing as being for both the lands and the people there. True, most of the elven people he knew in Middle-earth would never sail, and this fact undoubtedly caused him much grief. This is why the sea-longing was such a trouble to him. Leaving Middle-earth would have been very hard for him, the eternal sundering from all he knew and loved. He was pulled in two directions at once.
This was the predicament of all the Eldar, and though some chose never to sail, most found the pull irresistible. For Legolas, the call placed on him by the Valar so long ago, was the stronger and once the sea-longing was awakened, he really had no choice. It became a matter of not if but when he would sail.
I think if any of the others of his people (certainly those who were of Sindarin heritage, and probably those of Silvan kind as well) got close to the sea, the sea longing would be awakened in them also. However, we have no evidence that this actually occurred with any of his family or acquaintances. We can let our own imaginations can take over here!

quote:

The line of Legolas that precedes his song also gives rise to a couple of questions:
A funny expression, to refer to his father as his 'Elven-lord'! A common honorific or a hint of a certain lack of affection and closeness?

Good question - I've wondered about that too. I tend to think he is using an honorary title here. It certainly could imply distance in the relationship, though there is no evidence I know of to support that conclusion – again - you just have to go with your own imagination on that one.

quote:

I note that he does not say to ask Aragorn for permission, but perhaps he had already done so?

I would assume that he did.

quote:

Funny also that although Legolas speaks to a company that apparently consist of four Hobbits, one Dwarf and one Istar/Maia, he uses the timespan of Men to describe his coming stay in Ithilien:

There seemed to be none of all the noble Men present by then as the friends of the Company told each other of their tales. So why use Men as a measure?

I believe the solar year was the common way of measuring time for Hobbits and Dwarves as well as Men. I think he could also have been implying that the length of his stay would be linked to Aragorn's lifetime.

__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing,” said Legolas. TTT

From Elanor Gamgee

Re: Re: The very best of Legolas

Kirinki,
You don't practice telepathy perchance, do you? You've addressed the very questions that I regard as crucial for understanding Legolas as an individual; I've been pondering quite a lot over them myself and I'm excited to share my thoughts with you and others.

quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54
I quite agree that this passage and the song captures the essence of Legolas as the individual he has become after all the adventures of the Quest is over! It is awesome!

Agreed with every single word!

quote:

Any idea what bore refers to? To be born or to be bored ?
If the former, does it give a clue as to the possible limits of his birth date?
If the latter, does he really mean that the woods are boring him? Why then found another woodland realm, albeit for only a 'short' period of time?

I would respectfully disagree with Luthien and say that "bore" refers rather to "be bored" meaning that the woods cannot bring him joy any longer. IMHO this is Legolas' drama - he has lost his delight in Middle-earth, much as Elrond and Galadriel did, despite being much younger.
In fact, this is exactly what Galadriel's warning was about :

quote:

Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more

And in Legolas' own words, as he gives account about his, Gimli's and Aragorn's adventures on the way to Minas Tirith:

quote:

...deep in the heart of all my kindred lies the sea-longing which is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm.

As for Legolas founding another "woodland realm", I think, his purpose was twofold. First, he did it for the sake of his friend, Aragorn, and it was both a very big favour ("and when we come, it will be blessed..."), and a sacrifice from his part (he had to stay in Middle-earth for 120 yrs, despite his sea-longing).
Second, I think he did it for his Fellow-elves. Probably, he knew that there were adventurous individuals among them who would delight in a new land, helping others. Maybe even he reckoned with that some of his Elven subjects would follow him to the Blessed Realm.

quote:

The more I think about this song, the more I ponder the sea-longing that got to Legolas. Apparently it seems to be not only the sea itself that brings forth this longing of going to the sea and sail to the Undying Lands.
But rather that to Legolas it represents Elven-kind and all those that had already gone; twice it is repeated that he can hear their voices calling. So it would seem that he longs to join those people.

I think that most of his own Elven people would indeed stay on in ME until they faded, and never cross the sea? So why does the sea bring forth such a longing to be with his distant relatives? Going to the Undying Lands per se is more easy to understand. Any thoughts on this?

I think the answer lies in a deep-buried conflict in Legolas' heart - him being an Elda by blood and descent, and being fostered among the Wood-elves in their culture. Being an Elda, it was inevitable for him to develop very strong sea-longing once encountering the Sea; maybe he was very susceptible to it as an individual (Galadriel could perceive this trait in him and tried to give a warning). And that is his drama, again - his desire for the Sea and the Blessed Realm is so strong that it overcomes even the blood ties. As we know that Legolas is extremely loyal to his father and his people, these feelings must bring him a lot anguish, indeed.

quote:

The line of Legolas that precedes his song also gives rise to a couple of questions:
'And I,' said Legolas, 'shall walk in the woods of this fair land, which is rest enough. In days to come, if my Elven-lord allows, some of our folk shall remove hither; and when we come it shall be blessed, for a while. For a while: a month, a life, a hundred years of Men. But Anduin is near, and Anduin leads down to the Sea. To the Sea!'
A funny expression, to refer to his father as his 'Elven-lord'! A common honorific or a hint of a certain lack of affection and closeness?

I think, both, but rather the latter. I compared his referral to Fingolfin addressing Finwe in The Silmarillion; though very respectful, it's much less formal.

quote:

I note that he does not say to ask Aragorn for permission, but perhaps he had already done so?
Funny also that although Legolas speaks to a company that apparently consist of four Hobbits, one Dwarf and one Istar/Maia, he uses the timespan of Men to describe his coming stay in Ithilien:
For a while: a month, a life, a hundred years of Men.
There seemed to be none of all the noble Men present by then as the friends of the Company told each other of their tales. So why use Men as a measure?

I don't think he needs to ask Aragorn for permission; on the contrary, it was Aragorn who asks his friends for help. (And, as I've already said, it was a big favour from Legolas' side). As for him using Men's life as a measure of time, I wonder if this could be a symbol of the coming dominion of Men. Besides, Legolas would have this people move to Ithilien in order to help his friend, the King of Men, and his people. It could be quite natural for Legolas to use Mannish reckoning of time then.

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Morgan

Re: Re:The very best of Legolas

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin

I'm sure, as Luthien Undomiel pointed out, that bore here would be equivalent to the definition of "bore as in born." I believe he is simply referring to his heritage as woodland Elf. I don't see any evidence that he finds the woods boring - remember his fascination with Fangorn? IIRC he also said something to the effect that he/his people never grew tired of seeing new trees.

Ithildin,
I took bore to mean Legolas was weary of the forest. When the sea longing awoke a far greater force had command of his soul than the tangible things of Me. I also believe the strength and power of that calling would overide all other emotions no matter how close to his heart they had been.

quote:

The sea-longing the Elves experienced was a result of the Valar calling all of the Elves to Valinor long ago, so I see the longing as being for both the lands and the people there. True, most of the elven people he knew in Middle-earth would never sail, and this fact undoubtedly caused him much grief. This is why the sea-longing was such a trouble to him. Leaving Middle-earth would have been very hard for him, the eternal sundering from all he knew and loved. He was pulled in two directions at once.

I share your thoughts here. But I also think the sea-longing acted in the manner of latent instinct. Every cell of his being must answer the purpose for which the vessel of his soul was designed. As hard as it would have been to surrender the ties to the only world his physical self had ever known, his friends, his kin; the sea-longing is the voice that is calling him home. I believe he knew he would find peace in Valinor, without the regret of loss, and contentment in knowledge that was not bound to earthly realms.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."

From Ithildin

RE: The Sea-Longing

quote:

Originally posted by Morgan
Ithildin, I took bore to mean Legolas was weary of the forest.

I respectfully disagree. I stand on my understanding of the usage of the word "bore" here. "I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me," refers to being born and raised in the woods.
If you look at the flow and the sense of the words here, he is talking about leaving his homeland and sailing to a new home.
"I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me;
For our days are ending and our years failing.
I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing"
Regardless of whether Legolas ever became "bored" with the woods or not, the meaning used here is that of "born and raised."

Elsewhere, as you know, he spoke of his discontent, which Galadriel had predicted.
Galadriels' prophecy :
"'Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.'"

And Legolas' own words:
"...deep in the heart of all my kindred lies the sea-longing which is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm."

For myself, I do not believe Legolas ever became "bored" with the woods. I believe he loved the forests as much as ever, that is why it was so distressing to him to hear the gulls. As I said before, I feel he was pulled in two directions at once - the sea calling being the stronger, he knew he would have to leave if he ever wanted to have peace again. He could no longer experience peace and happiness living in the woods with his own people as he had in the past. If weariness played any part in what he was feeling, it would have been weariness of being drawn by the sea and not being able to immediately follow that calling.

quote:

When the sea longing awoke a far greater force had command of his soul than the tangible things of Me. I also believe the strength and power of that calling would overide all other emotions no matter how close to his heart they had been.

True, I think since he knew he would have to leave, his focus would have been on Valinor, not Middle-earth. But I don't believe it would override his other emotions to the point that he wouldn't feel the sorrow of leaving all that he had ever loved behind. It wasn't so overriding that he could not delay his departure as long as he needed to. And others delayed much longer than he did. The sea-longing was said to be ever-present, a constant tugging at the heart. It must have been strong, but as so many Elves delayed for such long periods of time, I don't think it was really overriding in nature. It was persistent, though and eventually had to be dealt with.

quote:

I share your thoughts here. But I also think the sea-longing acted in the manner of latent instinct. Every cell of his being must answer the purpose for which the vessel of his soul was designed. As hard as it would have been to surrender the ties to the only world his physical self had ever known, his friends, his kin; the sea-longing is the voice that is calling him home. I believe he knew he would find peace in Valinor, without the regret of loss, and contentment in knowledge that was not bound to earthly realms.

Yes! I agree! Legolas knew he would be happy in Valinor and alluded to it in his song, he looked forward to going home. Yet that did not eradicate the more immediate pain of leaving.

"I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing." I think he knew that trip would be the loneliest time of his life - a time when he would be sundered from Middle-earth but not yet united with his people in Valinor...
It must have been very similar for my own ancestors as they sailed from the shores of the UK, (and many others throughout history around the world) knowing they would never return to their homeland or see their loved ones that stayed behind again in this life. They, too, sailed with a promise of future happiness - and they found it, but making that voyage must have been very hard at the time.

"'Happy folk are Hobbits to dwell near the shores of the sea!' said Haldir. 'It is long indeed since any of my folk have looked on it, yet still we remember it in song. Tell me of these havens as we walk.'"
"'Alas for Lothlórien that I love! It would be a poor life in a land where no mallorn grew. But if there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it.'"
Haldir expressed a similar dilemma, he was hungry for any fragment of a description of the Havens, yet at the same time doubting that any place without mallorn trees could really be as wonderful as Lórien!
Wanting to leave and not wanting to leave at the same time, yet knowing that they must to find peace, that's what made the sea-longing so poignant and sad. They knew they would be happy in the end, but there was so much that they loved that had to be left behind to gain that happiness. Joy and peace lay ahead of them, but they weren't there yet.

“To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.
West, west away, the round sun is falling.
Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling,
The voices of my people that have gone before me?
I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me;
For our days are ending and our years failing.
I will pass the wide waters lonely sailing.
Long are the waves on the Last Shore falling,
Sweet are the voices in the lost Isle calling,
In Eresëa, in Elvenhome that no man can discover,
Where the leaves fall not: land of my people forever!”

__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing,” said Legolas. TTT

From Rain

Bore: born/ to be born

Re bore/ born
Back to more serious discussions. I have to agree with Luthien and Ithildin on this. I don't think that Legolas meant that Mirkwood was boring him - in fact before Kirinki mentioned it, I did not think that there was another interpretation of this. But that's me . Back to the subject - I think that if Mirkwood was really boring him, then we would have received a hint of this earlier. In fact it is only with Galadriel's message that we get to know that Legolas might not be happy in the woods any longer. Also, as Ithildin said, he was fascinated by Fangorn and there's another quote which makes me think that by 'bore' he meant 'born'. Just before the song mentioned by Kirinki, Gimli is talking to the hobbits, and he tells them that they all needed to rest:

quote:

To bed now you go. And so shall I.

This is Legolas' answer to him:

quote:

And I shall walk in the woods of this fair land, which is rest enough

I take it that wood/ trees soothed him, so how could they ever bore him. He mentions Mirkwood a number of times and he never gives us the impression that he doesn't love the place. With the awakening of the sea-longing in him, he may have desired something else, something new, but that does not necessarily mean that he was bored with what he had.

To summarise, I think that he was happy in Mirkwood until he heard the gulls - then as Morgan said, he lost his delight in ME, he knew that he would never again be happy in a wood, but I do not think he would say that his wood became boring.

That's my 2 cents worth - I hope I haven't confused you all.

__________________
Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."

From Rain

Ok, Ok. Had I read Ithildin's post before I wrote my own, I wouldn't have bothered. I agree with everything Ithildin said - it's written more beautifully and it makes much more sense

__________________
Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."

From Morgan

Re: RE: The Sea-Longing

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin
I respectfully disagree. I stand on my understanding of the usage of the word "bore" here. "I will leave, I will leave the woods that bore me," refers to being born and raised in the woods.
If you look at the flow and the sense of the words here, he is talking about leaving his homeland and sailing to a new home.

Ithildin,
I am pondering your comments and they certainly have validity. But I still can't shake the sense that Legolas was no longer in thrall of the forests of Me. When I first read that passage, I always understood bore to mean he was now preoccupied with farther shores, even if he didn't sail immediately. It is hard to surrender one's original interpretation because what the mind seizes tends to stick for me. But I will tumble your words around in my head and get back to you shortly.
As we have all so often said, the text can be largely left open to personal interpretation, all forms of which have validity. Many of my own thoughts on this subject are coloured by the fact that I too have "passed across the sea" and I know what such a journey feels like from a heartfelt perspective. Maybe in truth, this story is just a little too close to home for me.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."

From Elanor Gamgee

Ithildin,
I wish our posts had not crossed and I could have addressed your very interesting arguments re: born/bored. Unfortunately, it's too late now, "when all is said and done". However, I would address this point once again (with risk to bore the audience ). I support Morgan's interpretation; bore=be bored=loose delight. Although, as you say, this process was by now means immediate, and the line I will leave the woods that bore me could be understood symbolically, as a kind of foresight, maybe.
However, I don't think we can reach consensus on this point, nor do I think it is necessary to strive for. Exchanging our ideas and interpretations of the text is a pleasure and reward in itself, is it not?
Sorry for Kirinki; he has to make up his mind as best he can

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Ithildin

Plenty of room for personal opinions:)

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
I support Morgan's interpretation; bore=be bored=loose delight. Although, as you say, this process was by now means immediate, and the line I will leave the woods that bore me could be understood symbolically, as a kind of foresight, maybe.
However, I don't think we can reach consensus on this point, nor do I think it is necessary to strive for. Exchanging our ideas and interpretations of the text is a pleasure and reward in itself, is it not?

quote:

Originally posted by Morgan
Ithildin,
I am pondering your comments and they certainly have validity. But I still can't shake the sense that Legolas was no longer in thrall of the forests of Me. When I first read that passage, I always understood bore to mean he was now preoccupied with farther shores, even if he didn't sail immediately. It is hard to surrender one's original interpretation because what the mind seizes tends to stick for me. But I will tumble your words around in my head and get back to you shortly.
As we have all so often said, the text can be largely left open to personal interpretation, all forms of which have validity. Many of my own thoughts on this subject are coloured by the fact that I too have "passed across the sea" and I know what such a journey feels like from a heartfelt perspective. Maybe in truth, this story is just a little too close to home for me.

Of course! Of course! We are all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations. No one is required to believe as I do - sorry if I came on too strong...
I would just like to try to clarify one more time what I was trying to say. There are many places in Tolkiens' writings where he deliberately left descriptions vague - leaving it up to the readers' imaginations to fill in the details. Much of it is also so open to personal interpretation that it is impossible to pin down any single reading as being the only correct one. However, it is my personal conviction that this line, as Tolkien wrote it, carries only the meaning "bore" as in "born & raised." The other meaning - that Legolas' focus was shifted from the forest to the sea is certainly true, and the sea had indeed usurped the position of being first in his heart, however, I just do not believe that that is what Tolkien meant when he wrote that line that way. Foreshadowing and double meanings are common in literature and Tolkien used them often and to great effect, however to interpret this word (bore) that way (bored) seems extremely "un-Tolkienish" to me. I just think he communicated the anguish Legolas felt at being torn between the forest and the sea in other places and other ways. Here I believe he had Legolas refer to the woods as being his place of origin. Again - that's my personal opinion.

I do enjoy these discussions and everyone's contributions are important and add to our overall visualization of the world of Middle-earth and the characters that populate it. Thank you for the opportunity to participate!

From Elanor Gamgee

Re: Plenty of room for personal opinions:)

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin
Of course! Of course! We are all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations. No one is required to believe as I do - sorry if I came on too strong...
I would just like to try to clarify one more time what I was trying to say. There are many places in Tolkiens' writings where he deliberately left descriptions vague - leaving it up to the readers' imaginations to fill in the details. Much of it is also so open to personal interpretation that it is impossible to pin down any single reading as being the only correct one. However, it is my personal conviction that this line, as Tolkien wrote it, carries only the meaning "bore" as in "born & raised." The other meaning - that Legolas' focus was shifted from the forest to the sea is certainly true, and the sea had indeed usurped the position of being first in his heart, however, I just do not believe that that is what Tolkien meant when he wrote that line that way. Foreshadowing and double meanings are common in literature and Tolkien used them often and to great effect, however to interpret this word (bore) that way (bored) seems extremely "un-Tolkienish" to me. I just think he communicated the anguish Legolas felt at being torn between the forest and the sea in other places and other ways. Here I believe he had Legolas refer to the woods as being his place of origin. Again - that's my personal opinion.

I do enjoy these discussions and everyone's contributions are important and add to our overall visualization of the world of Middle-earth and the characters that populate it. Thank you for the opportunity to participate!

Ithildin,
I would like to grab the opportunity and thank you for the enjoyable and insightful discussion. And I can almost see (with my inner sight) the good old Professor having very good time as he watches our efforts to transcend the meaning of his words. Indeed, Tolkien is very often vague; moreover, deliberately vague. He adored literature mystifications and he used them brilliantly, IMHO. (With risk that Bacchus will ban me from the forum permanently, I cannot help giving Balrog's wings as an example. )

From Luthien Undomiel

Re: Plenty of room for personal opinions:)

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin
Of course! Of course! We are all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations. No one is required to believe as I do - sorry if I came on too strong...
I would just like to try to clarify one more time what I was trying to say. There are many places in Tolkiens' writings where he deliberately left descriptions vague - leaving it up to the readers' imaginations to fill in the details. Much of it is also so open to personal interpretation that it is impossible to pin down any single reading as being the only correct one. However, it is my personal conviction that this line, as Tolkien wrote it, carries only the meaning "bore" as in "born & raised." The other meaning - that Legolas' focus was shifted from the forest to the sea is certainly true, and the sea had indeed usurped the position of being first in his heart, however, I just do not believe that that is what Tolkien meant when he wrote that line that way. Foreshadowing and double meanings are common in literature and Tolkien used them often and to great effect, however to interpret this word (bore) that way (bored) seems extremely "un-Tolkienish" to me. I just think he communicated the anguish Legolas felt at being torn between the forest and the sea in other places and other ways. Here I believe he had Legolas refer to the woods as being his place of origin. Again - that's my personal opinion.

I do enjoy these discussions and everyone's contributions are important and add to our overall visualization of the world of Middle-earth and the characters that populate it. Thank you for the opportunity to participate!

Ithildin, you take the words right out of my head, elucidate them and make them beautiful: nice little Elvish trait you've got going there
I too will remain faithful to my first impression of the song's meaning, which is in agreement with your interpretation
Nevertheless I think that that these little debates enlighten the discussions and make them a lot more interesting. So keep it up everyone

From Rain

quote:

Originally posted by Luthien
Ithildin, you take the words right out of my head, elucidate them and make them beautiful: nice little Elvish trait you've got going there
I too will remain faithful to my first impression of the song's meaning, which is in agreement with your interpretation
Nevertheless I think that that these little debates enlighten the discussions and make them a lot more interesting. So keep it up everyone

You take the words right out of my head. Ithildin's words are soooo to the point and beautiful, that I'm going to avoid talking for a while....Ok, the while is over.

I love your wallpaper Ithildin.

__________________
Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."