Legolas Research and Fan Club Thread Page #!-5-6

Strange and Unique Friendship

From Elanor Gamgee

Strange and unique friendship

Ladies (and gent's),
Shall we not speak of the Elf of our hearts, just for a change?
So, Tolkien himself calls the friendship between Gimli and Legolas strange and unique (I swear on my copies of HoME). Fair enough, but how did it actually start? All we know is the ancient grudge (not totally without reason) between Elves and Dwarves, then remarkable quarrel on the borders of Lorien (on being blindfolded), and then, all of the sudden, while in Lorien Legolas often takes Gimli with him, even though he doesn't spend much time with the Fellowship. And when the Fellowship leaves Lorien these two are already fast friends! Any ideas? (I have one, rather bizarre, but so far I'd refrain from voicing it )

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Luthien Undomiel

Re. strange and unique friendship.

I wondered about that too. But I always assumed that the turning point was the meeting of Gimli and Galadriel (and Gimli's adoration of the Lady). I thought that Gimli's attitude towards the Elves changed then, and Legolas' heart had likewise turned favourably towards the dwarf. He was touched by his fair words to Galadriel.

Then came the overtures of friendship from Legolas while in Lorien and before you knew it: they were inseparable.

Lucky dwarf

I would love to hear your ideas on the start of their friendship Elanor. I get the feeling it's going to be quite entertaining

__________________
Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.
Nai elyë hiruva.

From Ithildin

Re: Strange and unique friendship

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Ladies (and gent's),
Shall we not speak of the Elf of our hearts, just for a change?
So, Tolkien himself calls the friendship between Gimli and Legolas strange and unique (I swear on my copies of HoME). Fair enough, but how did it actually start? All we know is the ancient grudge (not totally without reason) between Elves and Dwarves, then remarkable quarrel on the borders of Lorien (on being blindfolded), and then, all of the sudden, while in Lorien Legolas often takes Gimli with him, even though he doesn't spend much time with the Fellowship. And when the Fellowship leaves Lorien these two are already fast friends! Any ideas? (I have one, rather bizarre, but so far I'd refrain from voicing it )

Great question, Elanor! This topic was on my “to do” list anyway! Here’s my viewpoint:

I think the seeds of the answer are to be found in something Gandalf said to Legolas and Gimli at the doors of Moria.
“’It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned, said Gimli.’
‘I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves, said Legolas.’
‘I have heard both, said Gandalf; and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both. The doors are shut and hidden, and the sooner we find them the better. Night is at hand!’”

I think the driving force behind the formation of the friendship was simply that Gandalf asked them to. In many cases, when two people are at odds, if one is willing to lay down his/her differences and make the effort to bridge the gap, the other will respond in kind and then the process of building a friendship can begin. Just considering their personalities, I believe it was probably Legolas that made the first overtures of friendship.

Even so, it was not instant. During the trip through Moria I saw no indication of any effort on the part of either Elf or Dwarf to begin that friendship, however, Gimli shared some of the lore of his people during that trek, and undoubtedly, Legolas listened. Then on the banks of Nimrodel, Legolas shared the lore of his people with the fellowship. Just learning more about someone helps one to understand them better and makes it easier to become friends with them.

The fact that they believed Gandalf lost made it important to them to make the friendship happen in his memory. I’m not sure it would have ever reached the closeness it did if Gandalf had not fallen fighting the Balrog in Moria. I think Gimli’s positive reaction to Galadriel was a crucial element in the formation of the friendship also.

True, it was after leaving Moria and losing Gandalf that Legolas lost his temper with Gimli over the issue of walking blindfolded through Lórien. As I stated elsewhere in a previous post, Legolas “was frustrated and angry with Gimli (they were all tense, weary and grieving at the time) and he protested when Aragorn insisted that he should walk blindfolded through Lórien. He felt he had valid reasons to speak out, however the depth of his loyalty was shown – perhaps more clearly there than anywhere else – in that he submitted to Aragorn’s leadership and allowed himself to be blindfolded for his first trip into Lórien – and never mentioned it again.”

After Gimli met Galadriel and Legolas saw that the Dwarf highly regarded her beauty and authority, Legolas began to make earnest efforts to foster a friendship between himself and Gimli. He invited the Dwarf to accompany him when he visited with the Elves of Lórien. I don’t think Legolas would have stayed much with the Fellowship in Lórien regardless of the situation with Gimli, his desire to learn about Lothlórien and make friends with the Elves there would have been too strong.

As the journey continued and they faced hardship and danger together, the bond between them grew stronger, until finally, when Legolas sailed from the shores of Middle-earth, Gimli went with him.


My turn to ask questions...
I think Gimli wanted to meet Galadriel again, and that was the driving force behind his leaving Middle-earth. Anyone have a clue as to how he (or Legolas) could have received notification of "permission" for Gimli to come to Aman?

Also I'm of the impression that for a mortal to go to Aman did not make them immortal, they just got to spend what time they had left there in the Blessed Realm. Can anyone confirm or correct this theory?

Cuio mae
Ithildin
Elf Member, FoL

__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing,” said Legolas. TTT

From  Morgan

Thoughts on the friendship of Legolas and Gimli

You realize of course that having dangled the carrot, you are now going to have to post your quixotic theory! I can't wait...

I never got the feeling, even from the beginning, that either Legolas or Gimli really disliked each other. They were expected to on account of age old prejudice, but in view of their special circumstances (travelling together in the Fellowship) they were exposed to a unique opportunity. Once removed from an environment that encouraged racial disharmony, each was able to view the other as a person in their own right. I also get a sense that there is something deep down in Legolas' psyche, a hint of unavoidable destiny that tells his heart to recognize the importance of this friendship and where it will lead.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."

From  Morgan

Re: Re: Strange and unique friendship

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin


I think the seeds of the answer are to be found in something Gandalf said to Legolas and Gimli at the doors of Moria.
"But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends, and to help me. I need you both. ”

I think the driving force behind the formation of the friendship was simply that Gandalf asked them to.
The fact that they believed Gandalf lost made it important to them to make the friendship happen in his memory.
I think Gimli’s positive reaction to Galadriel was a crucial element in the formation of the friendship also.

After Gimli met Galadriel and Legolas saw that the Dwarf highly regarded her beauty and authority, Legolas began to make earnest efforts to foster a friendship between himself and Gimli. As the journey continued and they faced hardship and danger together, the bond between them grew stronger, until finally, when Legolas sailed from the shores of Middle-earth, Gimli went with him.

Ithildin,
These are excellent points. I do wish I had read them before I put my post up because they have given me much food for thought. Perhaps is it just me, but I never felt from the text that Legolas and Gimli were enemies. I did not read into the story, the animosity you have cited so thoroughly.

quote:

Also I'm of the impression that for a mortal to go to Aman did not make them immortal, they just got to spend what time they had left there in the Blessed Realm. Can anyone confirm or correct this theory?

I do remember in another thread mention of this. The poster stated that mortals who were admitted to Aman did not become immortal. In fact the very admittance which brought them healing, also shortened what remained of their natural lifespan. But when the time came for their passing, it would be one of profound peace.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."

From Ithildin

Re:Strange and unique friendship

quote:

originally posted by Morgan
Thoughts on the friendship of Legolas and Gimli
I never got the feeling, even from the beginning, that either Legolas or Gimli really disliked each other. They were expected to on account of age old prejudice, but in view of their special circumstances (travelling together in the Fellowship) they were exposed to a unique opportunity. Once removed from an environment that encouraged racial disharmony, each was able to view the other as a person in their own right. I also get a sense that there is something deep down in Legolas' psyche, a hint of unavoidable destiny that tells his heart to recognize the importance of this friendship and where it will lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Morgan
...Perhaps is it just me, but I never felt from the text that Legolas and Gimli were enemies. I did not read into the story, the animosity you have cited so thoroughly.

I think you have an excellent angle here, Morgan. I believe the animosity was there, but as you suggest, it was entirely caused by that “age-old prejudice” – it probably wasn’t really personal dislike and once they got to know one another, especially as they seem to have made some actual effort in that direction, they were able to overcome the prejudice. And being an Elf, Legolas may have had a bit of foresight about the matter as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Morgan
… Legolas certainly demonstrates the ability to express deep caring but it never evolves into physical expression. I wonder to whom he might have felt comfortable bearing his soul. The closest we ever get to this is when he alludes to the awakening of his sea-longing.

Yes, Morgan, I wonder too. I see the Elves as deeply private people, so I don’t think that there was a lot of soul baring done among them anyway. If they were married then perhaps to their spouse, otherwise rarely and only to the closest of friends or family. They were so intuitive about sensing others’ mental and emotional state that maybe they felt they didn’t need to put things into words. Perhaps that’s what made Legolas’ friendship with Gimli so special – they were able to cut across those cultural boundaries and just talk.

There are only a few places in the book where Legolas actually opens up a little to his companions. Here are a few of my favorites:
One night, as they traveled down Anduin, the group began discussing how long they had stayed in Lórien and Legolas shares with them a little about how Elves perceive the passage of time.
Later, we get a glimpse of his concern for his own people when on their return to Helm, Gimli wished that they had could have called for some of their kinsfolk to come help them fight. Legolas, troubled, replied that he didn’t think any of their kin would have come because they, too, were under attack.
Then in Minas Tirith Legolas recounts to his friends his experience of hearing the gulls for the first time and the heart-rending effect it had on him.
Maybe you all can share some of your favorites...

Cuio mae
Ithildin
Elf Member, FoL

__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing,” said Legolas. TTT

From Bacchus

Gimli and Legolas

I wouldn't be too quick to discount personal antipathy in the early stages of their relationship. Remember, Gimli's father had been imprisoned by Legolas' father in The Hobbit. There are still some hard feelings over this, as seen by Gloin's reaction at the Council to Legolas' news of the escape of Smèagol.

Given that, I would agree that the friendship between the two had its genesis in Gandalf's request in Eregion. The shock of Gandalf's fall, followed by Galadriel's unexpected kindness (remember Celeborn's reaction to the news of the Balrog), further paved the way for the friendship to grow. Finally, the shared experiences at Parth Galen and across the plains of Rohan cemented the bond.

Regarding mortals in the Undying Lands, Tolkien stated (I think in Letter 246) that Frodo went to the West seeking not immortality, but healing and rest. Indeed, he opined that a mortal, there in the presence of the Ainur and the Eldar, would burn out more quickly and thus pass sooner than in the mortal lands. Of course, what time remained to him would have been passed in bliss. I can see no reason why these statements would not also apply to Gimli.

__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

From Rain

Re: Legolas and Gimli friendship
I agree with Bacchus here.

quote:

Given that, I would agree that the friendship between the two had its genesis in Gandalf's request in Eregion. The shock of Gandalf's fall, followed by Galadriel's unexpected kindness (remember Celeborn's reaction to the news of the Balrog), further paved the way for the friendship to grow. Finally, the shared experiences at Parth Galen and across the plains of Rohan cemented the bond.

I think that Gandalf's words and his fall paved the way to their friendship. I think they started out with a certain animosity based on Thranduil's treatment of Gloin, then it moved to tolerance and then friendship. I get the impression that all the company grew closer together after Gandalf's fall. It may have been a reaction to their grief.

I think I'm repeating someone else's post here but I'm trying to get my thoughts straight (this takes a lot of effort, friends). I get the feeling that they become good friends in Lorien and that there's no hint of anything before. IIRC even the rest of the Company were surprised that Legolas took Gimli with him in Lorien, which means there was nothing 'unusual' (hints of friendship between elf and dwarf) before. But then again, the rest of the Fellowship may have been too busy with their own troubles to take any notice of this friendship, and when they felt safer in Lorien, they had the time to look around and notice this about their friends.
Ok I'm in rambling mood, so I'm going to stop

__________________
Rain

"Follow what may, great deeds are not lessened in worth."

From Bacchus

quote:

Originally posted by Rain
IIRC even the rest of the Company were surprised that Legolas took Gimli with him in Lorien, which means there was nothing 'unusual' (hints of friendship between elf and dwarf) before.

You are correct in your recollection. "Often he took Gimli with him, and the others wondered at this change." This is the first inkling we get that Gimli and Legolas are progressing from allies to friends.

From Elanor Gamgee

Strange and unique friendship - an attempt to summary

Next post, as promised
Wow, discussion was superb! I really enjoyed every line!

quote:

Originally posted by Ithildin:
I think the driving force behind the formation of the friendship was simply that Gandalf asked them to.

Thanks a lot, Ithildin! I've never paid attention to this, however, it does seem to be a turning point in their relationships. If I may try and make a summary of what've been said by you, Morgan, Bacchus and Rain, I think we could safely assume the following:
- There was a personal animosity between Legolas and Gimli (as Bacchus suggests); and it seems to be mostly from Gimli's side.
- There also was age-old racial prejudice.
- However, both of them "were exposed to unique opportunity" (quoting Morgan here).
- They were not only exposed to unique opportunity, but they also were unique individuals capable of making their best of it. In Morgan's words, "I also get a sense that there is something deep down in Legolas' psyche, a hint of unavoidable destiny that tells his heart to recognize the importance of this friendship and where it will lead." I could not agree more. I'd also like to add that Galadriel might perceive this uniqueness in him while "interviewing" him in Lorien.
And here come my two cents
Legolas was asked to befriend Gimli, and it was Galadriel who asked him. She perceived that he was capable to cast the old prejudice of his race aside (Gimli, on his part, has already demonstrated it by his speech). Bearing in mind that Gandalf had already asked the same thing of them (and, probably, feeling bound to honour his memory) both were more willing to see and appreciate each other as individuals. IMHO Galadriel's influence was also help to explain the fact that Gimli followed Legolas in Lorien; even if Legolas was ready to befriend the Dwarf, not all the Lorien elves might share his feeling, the Lady's wish put aside.
As we say in Mirkwood, the rest is history

From Rain

Re: Strange and unique friendship - an attempt to summary

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
IMHO Galadriel's influence was also help to explain the fact that Gimli followed Legolas in Lorien; even if Legolas was ready to befriend the Dwarf, not all the Lorien elves might share his feeling, the Lady's wish put aside.
As we say in Mirkwood, the rest is history

I had never thought of it this way. I guess you must be right. Galadriel gave Gimli 'freedom of movement', so to speak. Maybe this was also one of the reasons he loved her so much - the fact that she was ready to trust him moving about freely in Lorien.

From Morgan

Re: Strange and unique friendship - an attempt to summary

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
[b]Sailing West together
And now I'd like to turn to that very history.

Bacchus, do you believe in telepathy? You'd better do, because it's exactly what you've just demonstrated! Well, in case you don't buy this idea, let me tell that there is evidence of Ulmo's involvement, though indirect.
It's quite safe to assume that Legolas, a woodland elf as he was, could be a very good carpenter; it can be also safe to assume that he might be capable of making a decent river boat. However, it seems almost implausible that Legolas, alone, had skills enough to build a sea-faring ship. (Cf. Cirdan and his shipyard in the Havens.) So here I see the direct evidence of the Valar being involved - Ulmo instructed Legolas on the craft of ship-building. (It could be Osse, but it doesn't really matter )
[B]

Elanor,
I definitely concur regarding the telepathy in general, though I never imagined the instruction to come from Ulmo. I had always assumed that Legolas was assisted in the building of his ship by fellow Elves already skilled in such matters.

quote:

While staying in Minas Tirith Legolas made a promise (mostly to himself, though I'm making a whole story out of it) not to leave while any of his mortal friends abode in Middle-earth. Little did he know how it would affect him in the future...

I can certainly see him doing this. The length of one mortal lifetime would seem fleeting to an Elf, but in the circumstances, with the awakening of his sea longing, for Legolas it could also have seemed like an eternity. Maybe in the end, with only Gimli left, Legolas could no longer restrain his desire to sail West. He certainly wasn't prepared to leave Gimli behind, and perhaps on account of "services rendered" by Gimli during the time of the Fellowship, the grace of the Valar was extended to the dwarf and he was permitted to pass across the sea.

__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."

From Elanor Gamgee

Re: Re: Strange and unique friendship - an attempt to summary

quote:

Originally posted by Rain

I liked your explanation with regards to Ulmo teaching Legolas how to build a sea-faring ship. Though I don't agree that Legolas would use Galadriel as an excuse to get Gimli to go with him - ok, I have two reasons:
Reason 1: I think Galadriel was still very much alive in Gimli's heart. He still wanted to see her and he still loved her, so I don't think Legolas needed to remind him about her.
Reason 2: I don't think that Gimli went with Legolas just because for Legolas it was a matter of life and death. I believe that Gimli went with him because he actully wanted to be with his friend. The way you state it Elanor, it seems that the friendship was stronger on Legolas' side, and that Gimli went with him only because it was so important for Legolas. I think that if Legolas did not want to be separated from his friend, then it was the same for Gimli.
I believe that Gimli sailed west for love - love for Legolas and love for Galadriel. Hope this doesn't sound soppy

Rain,
I ought to have replied long before. Unfortunately, the brief minutes I can spend before the palantir do not belong to me (in plain words, I'm at work) and Elanor, helpless hobbit maid she is, can do nothing to protect herself from the Orc raids, both real and virtual.
However:
No, your reasoning does not sound soppy; it sounds beautiful IMHO I'm sorry, I've expressed myself clumsily writing in haste. I totally agree with you - Gimli still loved and revered Galadriel, as well as he loved Legolas, and he would follow his friend unconditionally. I'd even say that for Gimli Legolas came first, Galadriel - second.
Still what I mean is that there was certain miscommunication between the two friends; IMHO it was inevitable (I'll try to elaborate on it in a following post, if I manage ). So, it was Legolas' point of view (in my interpretation, of course) that I tried to render. He knew (or he believed he knew) how difficult it would be for Gimli to part from Middle-earth and settle among the Elves. In fact, it was such a unique case that a chronist of Gondor (who made this note in the Red Book) could not believe it true (sorry, can't quote, no books at hand. Give me a shout if you need the quote, I'll try to accommodate.) OK, Legolas knowing how hard it could be for Gimli to sail, and being himself disturbed, sorrowful and insecure, used Galadriel as a pretext to convince Gimli come along, although there was no need to do it, Gimli would follow anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Rain
But how did Legolas know, that he could cross the sea with Gimli? Through telepathy?
Considering my limited knowledge with regards to ME and its history, who were the elves who could help Legolas with building the ship. Were they the ones he brought with him from Mirkwood, or any elves that might have been there from Rivendell or Lorien?
I know, I'm asking too many questions

I think I may try and answer at least some of them.
Yes, I believe it was through telepathy - he prayed to Elbereth (Varda) and received her answer by thought. "Physically" it might come in many ways - he might simply know that Gimli was allowed to the Blessed Realm, or he might hear a beautiful voice speaking to him and explaining the situation. Personally, I'm more in favour of the second option - it seems more "godlike" and dramatic.

quote:

Originally posted by Morgan
Elanor,
I definitely concur regarding the telepathy in general, though I never imagined the instruction to come from Ulmo. I had always assumed that Legolas was assisted in the building of his ship by fellow Elves already skilled in such matters.

Sorry, Morgan, I would disagree with the Elvish option.
IMHO it's quite safe to say that by the end of the TA, beginning ot the Fourth the only Elves in Middle-earth qualified to build sea-faring ships where the Falathrim (people of Cirdan). It is quite unlikely that any of them lived in Thranduil's realm. Most of the Silvan elves had never come anywhere near the Sea; there could be Falathrim among those Sindar who followed Thranduil after the fall of Arvernien, but I don't think they would do it. Among all the Sindar they were most enamoured of the Sea and it's hard for me to believe that any of them would leave a sea-shore for an inland forest. So, I hold Ulmo theory as the most likely and most romantic

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Elanor Gamgee

quote:

Originally posted by Luthien Undomiel
... Interesting, but I'm not sure I follow the whole thing. How would his bringing Gimli to the West with him absolve him of the pain of Gimli's death? Wouldn't he have had to face it someday anyway?..

Of course he would, but the consequences for him facing it in Aman would be far less severe, IMHO. Tolkien often compared Aman to paradise for the Elves; it was a place where they could enjoy life in full and exercise all their artistic and "scientific" talents. For Legolas specifically it would mean, first, support and sympathy from his friends when he would need it most, and second, a lot of positive distraction, which would help him to cope with his grief.

__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make

From Luthien Undomiel

quote:

Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee

Of course he would, but the consequences for him facing it in Aman would be far less severe, IMHO. Tolkien often compared Aman to paradise for the Elves; it was a place where they could enjoy life in full and exercise all their artistic and "scientific" talents. For Legolas specifically it would mean, first, support and sympathy from his friends when he would need it most, and second, a lot of positive distraction, which would help him to cope with his grief.

This in turn makes me wonder what Legolas would have done after Gimli's death. He may have gotten quite bored, if one can get bored in Paradise.

Continued in discussion titled:

Telepathy and Shipbuilding