Legolas Research and Fan Club Thread page #1, 5, 13
Discussion
on Sindarin and Silvan Fluency
From Morgan
Sindarin and Silvan fluency
Getting
serious now,
I am curious about distinct differences between Sindarin and Silvan dialects.
Can someone help me out here. What exactly are their variant histories and
marked differences (recommended passages for reading most welcome) It has been
previously mentioned that Legolas was undoubtably fluent in both. Would this
have been from birth? What would have been his "cradle tongue?"
__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the
life that is waiting for us."
From Osric
Sindarin & Silvan
Just to pick on the word 'dialect'...
Back in the First Age the Lassiquendi (late-comer Telerin) arrived in Ossiriand
and had their own language somewhat intelligible to the Noldor and Sindarin of Beleriand.
Another couple of Ages later, the majority of the 'commoners' in Lórien and the
Woodland Realm were still Nandorin (even later-comer Telerin who never even
made it that far West, but were in any event related to the Lassiquendi) even
if their rulers were Noldor and Sindar. And yet by then they probably didn't speak
much Nandorin/Silvan except for in using names, and unless they retained it in
song and lore. They used Sindarin, which was widely just called Elvish by then,
since Quenya wasn't an oft-spoken language by then either.. Silvan had been
sufficiently far removed from any common Quendi root to be a separate language
from Sindarin rather than a 'dialect', although it's conceivable that the use
of Silvan loan-words and so on meant that the character of the Sindarin spoken
by the Nandor might have been like a 'Silvan dialect' of Sindarin after all.
There are, however, no passages in Silvan (or Nandorin) to give us anything to
go on. The evidence relating to them comes almost exclusively from the names of
places and people, and 'Elvish' (i.e. Sindarin) terms that owe something to
derivation from a Silvan origin.
What there is to be said on Nandorin, the Silvan tongue, is all to be found at
Nandorin page on Ardalambion
EDIT: Oh yeah, I nearly forgot... So the language you need in order to chat up
Legolas next time you bump into him down at the Miruvorë Bar is Sindarin.
Whether that's the 'high' Sindarin his grandfather and father would have
brought out of Doriath via the Falas a few thousand years ago, or a 'Silvan'
dialect, depends on what his Mom was -- you've heard of the expression 'mother
tongue'? But that's
another topic; view Elanor's Profile and check out her posts, she is the
absolute STAR authority on such stuff.
Cheers!
__________________
|\/ Osric of Ossulston
|\/ Venerable he seemed as a king
crowned with many winters,
|___and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his
strength.
Last edited by Osric on 03-20-2002 at 03:43 AM
From Ithildin
Re: Sindarin and Silvan fluency
O.K.
While I was getting all this composed Osric beat me to the punch - but I'm
posting anyway...
BTW, great summary Osric!
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan
Getting serious now,
I am curious about distinct differences between Sindarin and Silvan dialects.
Can someone help me out here. What exactly are their variant histories and
marked differences (recommended passages for reading most welcome) It has been
previously mentioned that Legolas was undoubtably fluent in both. Would this
have been from birth? What would have been his "cradle tongue?"
As to the histories, Appendix F in book 3 tells a little about Sindarin, this
link to Ardalambion tells more - (read the first section) http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm
This link tells about the Silvan tongue -
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/nandorin.htm
(where did they get that green?!!!)
here's most of the relevant stuff in an excerpt - without the green...
quote:
Nandorin - the Green-elven tongue
Also called: Danian, the Silvan tongue, Silvan Elvish
During the long hike from Cuiviénen to the Sea, some Telerin Elves refused to
cross the terrifying Misty Mountains. They forsook the March to the sea, where Ulmo would
bring the Elves to Valinor (Silm ch. 3). In Quenya, these Elves were later
called the Nandor or "Those who go back", though it seems that none
of them actually returned into the East; they just stayed behind the Hithaeglir
(WJ:384). Lead by one Denethor some of the Nandor eventually did enter Beleriand,
though they had lost the boat to Valinor by several millennia. They settled in Ossiriand,
which region they renamed Lindon, and by the Sindar they came to be called
Green-elves (Sindarin Laegil, Laegelrim). Concerning the relationship between
the Green-elven and Grey-elven tongues, it is stated that "although the
dialects of the Silvan Elves, when they again met their long separated kindred,
had so far diverged from Sindarin as to be hardly intelligible, little study
was needed to reveal their kinship as Eldarin tongues" (UT:257). WJ:385
confirms that the Sindar recognized the Green-elves "as kinsfolk of Lindarin
origin (...), using a tongue that in spite of great differences was still
perceived to be akin to their own".
However, all that is known of the Nandorin tongue is some thirty words, most of
which are found in the Etymologies. In Tolkien's own words, "Though the
comparison of the Silvan dialects with their own speech greatly interested the loremasters,
especially those of Noldorin origin, little is now known of the Silvan Elvish.
The Silvan Elves had invented no forms of writing, and those who learned this
art from the Sindar wrote in Sindarin as well as they could" (UT:257).
Some of the Sindar that came to Thranduil's realm escaping the destruction of Doriath
adopted the Nandorin tongue and took names of Silvan form and style, just like
the Noldor had adapted their Quenya names to Sindarin centuries earlier. These
Sindar "wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said,
to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had
disturbed it" (UT:259). Yet Sindarin somehow sneaked into even the Silvan
communities: "By the end of the Third Age, the Silvan tongues had probably
ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the
War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All
that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of
persons and places" (UT:257). Nimrodel would only speak the Silvan tongue
even after it had fallen into disuse in Lórien; see UT:241. UT:252-253 suggests
that the name Lórien itself may be altered from Nandorin Lórinand, "Valley of Gold (golden light)",
or even older Lindórinand "Vale of the Land of the Singers (= Lindar, Teleri)".
According to a footnote in Appendix F, not only Lórien but also the names Caras
Galadhon, Amroth and Nimrodel "are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin".
This article takes the position that Silvan had all but died out in Mirkwood by
the time of LOTR, but this was a point Tolkien was inconstant on, so we were of
the opinion that it was still spoken there.
As to Legolas being bilingual - in our discussion we both decided that he
probably was - though there is no proof to support it. If Silvan was still
spoken, then he surely knew it, if not from early childhood, then later as he
began to spend time with the other Mirkwood defenders who would have mostly
been Silvan Elves. Sindarin would definitely have been his "cradle
tongue" and learning Silvan may well have been concurrent.
Elanor and I were just beginning a discussion on the other thread about the Sindarin
of Doriath and whether Oropher and Thranduil would have persisted in the use of
that variant of the language in their realm - so here is a link about that
language. I'm not sure that they would have, I think the Sindarin they spoke
was nearly the same as that spoken in Lorien.
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/doriath.htm
(beware the Pepto-Bismol pink...)
__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are
doing,” said Legolas. TTT
From Osric
I'm not a Tolkien linguist, but I am limbering up to write
an article on just exactly what was and wasn't spoken in the Late Third Age.
Can you point me to the thread where it was decided that Nandorin probably was
still the main spoken language of the Silvan folk in the Woodland Realm (and Lórien?).
TIA, Os.
From Morgan
From
Many Thanks
Os,
Ithildin,
Terrific links. Now I have some excellent bedtime stories to foil the sandman.
Ithildin,
I had been following the discussion between you and Elanor and brought up the
topic here, hoping to see it continued away from the movie forum.
(It was just an excuse to drag you all over to this thread )
Os,
Thanks for the referal, Elanor will be flattered, but if you didn't already
know, she and I are fast Palantir buddies.
As for "chatting up" ('cringe,' I loathe that phrase) Legolas
requiring Sindarin, well he is also quite fluent in Westron I believe. But for the pleasure of
my company, he will have to look farther than the local Miruvore bar. He
can find this Elf in her local apple tree at dusk, watching Aldebaran rise over
the sea.
__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the
life that is waiting for us."
From Elanor Gamgee
quote:
Originally posted by Osric
I'm not a Tolkien linguist, but I am limbering
up to write an article on just exactly what was and wasn't spoken in the Late
Third Age. Can you point me to the thread where it was decided that Nandorin
probably was still the main spoken language of the Silvan folk in the
Woodland Realm (and Lórien?).
TIA, Os.
Wow!!! Os, I can't believe my eyes!!!! Will you do it?!!! May I humbly and
respectfully ask for a copy? (drool; totally against
my own principles )
Below there're links for you; the first one is to the discussion between Ithildin
and me, to which you refer; we started on page 2 and went on to page 3. Just a
very minor comment - neither Ithildin nor I ever claimed that Silvan was still
spoken in Lorien by the end of the Third Age, on the contrary. Mirkwood is
another pair of shoes.
The second link is to a chart (IMHO similar to what you're doing); it's from Mellonath
Daeron, which is a linguistic section of Forodrim, Swedish Tolkien Society.
Very interesting stuff, although I don't fully agree with it at some points.
http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/...15&pagenumber=2
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_ldev2.html
And, BTW, why do you call the language Nandorin (no picking! Genuine curiosity,
I swear! ). IMHO we should
discriminate nomenclature according to timeline. By the end of the T.A. pure Nandor
would cease to exist; the Silvan elves of both Mirkwood and Lorien would have
mixed ethnicity (but we've discussed that )
And I'd rather confess - I'm not Tolkien linguist either; I'm more interested
in the socio-linguistic stuff (in other words, who spoke what, when and for
which reason). Actually, I'm making a chart of the Sundering of the Elves
(which I have promised to my good friend Sister Golden Hair for ages), but now
I don't know when I'll be able to complete it. Hopefully, during the
Easter.
And before I quit - I'm immensely grateful for your compliment, though I deem
myself entirely undeserving. Oops, I'd rather keep quiet before you may think
that I'm fishing for more compliments!
__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make
From Elanor Gamgee
Elven tongues at the end of T.A.
Osric,
In case you might need it.
Below follow quotations from one of Tolkien's last letters.
Letter 347, To Richard Jeffery
"It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob. more
people (Men) that knew Q. [Quenya - E.G.], or spoke S. [Sindarin], than there
were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and
its fiefs must have been much greater than that of Lindon, Rivendell
and Lorien." The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, Houghton Mifflin, 2000,
p.425
"... The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak Sindarin but a
related language or dialect." Ibid.,footnote on the same page
__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make
From Ithildin
quote:
Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Re: Club Motto/Slogan Since suggestions seem kind of lacking, I take liberty to
suggest my favourite Legolas quote as the Club Motto: "Few can foresee
whither their road will lead them till they come to it's end".
I like it, Elanor! I will see if there are
enough Sindarin words to make a translation of this. I don’t think there would
be enough Doriathrin to do it, and I’m of the impression that Doriathrin was an
archaic language and that the Elves of Mirkwood spoke a similar form of Sindarin
to that spoken in Lórien. But I will continue to research this subject. Here's
a link to an article on Doriathrin: http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/doriath.htm
From Ithildin
quote:
Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
It must be tremendous amount of work giving the state of Sindarin as a
language. Please, don't worry about time.
BTW, I was going to ask you - what Sindarin dictionary do you prefer? Slightly
rephrasing the question - is there a dictionary that the Elfling and Tolklang
experts would consider "canonical"?
True! The Sindarin language is difficult sometimes due to its incompleteness
and that there is so much that is not known for sure about the grammar.
Considering that Quenya was essentially only an academic language by the Third
Age (and especially in light of our conversations about the unlikely use or
acceptance of Quenya in Mirkwood) it comes a something of a shock to discover
that the first recommendation new folks receive upon making inquiry about
learning Elvish is “The first thing you should do is learn Quenya!” I guess it is a
good place to start if you are not absolutely set on learning Sindarin (like
me!)
The dictionary I use most is found online at:
http://www.geocities.com/almacq.geo/sindar/sdintro.html
It is downloadable so you can print it out.
As to being "canonical" – I don’t know that yet. This one seems to be
highly regarded, from what I can tell.
Most of the articles I have studied so far can be found either at Ardalambion
or Gwaith I-Phethdain (Fellowship of the Word-Smiths)
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm
Thanks everyone, for
the nice comments on the wallpaper! Glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks, too, for the
encouragement concerning our in-depth discussions - I really enjoy this!
Morgan, I enjoyed
looking through your album of Tolkien related art – you have collected some
nice pieces there!
__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are
doing,” said Legolas. TTT
From Elanor Gamgee
Sindarin
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
True! The Sindarin language is difficult sometimes due to its
incompleteness and that there is so much that is not known for sure about the
grammar. Considering that Quenya was essentially only an academic language by
the Third Age (and especially in light of our conversations about the unlikely
use or acceptance of Quenya in Mirkwood) it comes a something of a shock to
discover that the first recommendation new folks receive upon making inquiry
about learning Elvish is “The first thing you should do is learn Quenya!” I guess it is a
good place to start if you are not absolutely set on learning Sindarin (like
me!)
Oh yes, I can understand your frustration! Well, this advice would be
reasonable for someone inclined to study any Elvish tongue, not
necessarily Sindarin. From linguistic point of view it makes sense, since Quenya,
though more difficult (as Tolkien says) is much better developed structurally
and grammatically, and has richer vocabulary.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
The dictionary I use most is found online at:
http://www.geocities.com/almacq.geo/sindar/sdintro.html
It is downloadable so you can print it out.
As to being "canonical" – I don’t know that yet. This one seems to be
highly regarded, from what I can tell.
Thank you! I have this one, it has survived my computer troubles and I'm glad I
don't have to replace it
And
quote:
Originally posted by Luthien
Quenya does seem easier to get a grasp of. I started this course awhile ago but
only got to lesson 5 as it was quite time consuming. It's a stepping stone for
the other languages, or so I've heard.
I think Sindarin sounds prettier though. It flows so nicely.
That dictionary that Ithildin refers to indeed seems very thorough. I
downloaded it months ago, but haven't started writing the Sindarin love sonnets
just yet.
Luthien, thanks for your opinion on the dictionary
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
Most of the articles I have studied so far can be found either at Ardalambion
or Gwaith I-Phethdain (Fellowship of the Word-Smiths)
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm
Thanks a lot for the link! I've never heard of Gwaith-i-Phethdain before, so
visiting the site was exciting
__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make
From Luthien Undomiel
Re: Tengwar and other fonts
quote:
Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Ladies and gents,
I've just come across the site below:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/index.html
I haven't looked at it closer yet, but it seems to be a gold mine for all kind
of fonts including Tengwar, Cirth, etc.
Yes I know that site! Daniel Smith makes some excellent Tengwar fonts and there
are also links to other fonts (including Tengwar cursive which I really like).
But make sure to look through the Read Me file that comes with Dan's fonts.
It's really helpful
