Legolas Research and Fan Club
Thread Page #5-9
Elvish Emotions and Legolas
Continued
from Discussion:
Legolas in Rivendell
From Ithildin
Lighthearted Legolas
There
was a great discussion going on here a while back, with some very good points
being made. So I’m bringing it back to the surface to add my *opinions* to the
list!
quote:
Originally posted by Rain
Makes sense...thinking of it, I do get the impression that Legolas is quite a
loner, though he demonstrates very strong feelings for his friends (not just Gimli).
quote:
Originally posted by Elanor:
Morgan, I fully agree with you about the loneliness, IIRC
Rain shares our mind on that. Whenever I read LoTR it
would always strike me how much affection Legolas actually feels for his
friends (not only Gimly, I agree). BTW, one more
observation - he never displays his affection openly; usually it's disguised by
irony (more or less mild). IMHO it's rather clear indication of a lonely and
not very happy childhood; a child who feels unloved would hardly know how to
demonstrate warm feelings.
These are very good observations and theories! I know I find my definition of Tolkien’s characters enhanced by considering the opinions
of others even if I eventually decide to disagree with them. I submit my
opinion in the form of an “argument” with “supportive evidence”, because I tend
to write that way (maybe I am just trying to convince myself!) However, I am not trying to prove anyone else wrong – we are all entitled to our own
individual interpretation of this story and its characters!
Personally, I got the impression that Elves in general were just not very demonstrative folk –not a lot
of bear hugs and back slapping among them; they were
just not a “cuddly” sort of people. I haven’t exactly researched it yet (so I’m
sure others can point out lots of examples of exceptions!) but I pictured Tolkien’s Elves being rather restrained in displaying
emotions under most circumstances. (Not talking about crisis-type situations
here.)
When I first read The Hobbit I thought the Elves of Rivendell
were depicted as being lighthearted to the point of being a little silly and
the Woodelves’ continuous partying and boisterous
behavior really clashed with the image I had of Elves after reading LOTR and parts of the Silmarillion.
The disparity was due to Tolkien’s continuous
evolution of his vision of Middle-earth and its peoples, I know. Of course, in
The Hobbit, times were a little
happier – and by the end of the story Middle-earth had been given a reprieve
from evil – the shadow lifted for a time. In LOTR the
story never actually takes you back into Mirkwood,
and the Elves which you encounter at Rivendell and Lórien fully realized the gravity of the situation facing
Middle-earth at the time of the quest. Impending war on home territory does
have a dampening effect on the emotions of most civilized peoples. (I think
back to 9/11/2001 and I can identify…)
And what they were facing amounted to the prospect of total annihilation. So,
it’s possible my impression of their generally serious nature is colored by the
somewhat darker tone of LOTR.
So, all that said, for myself, I visualized Elves in
general to be fairly reserved, dignified and composed by nature, therefore
Legolas displaying those traits would not necessarily
be a symptom of unhappy past or loneliness, just part of his elvishness. At least that’s my take on it.
But going back to the Woodelves’ culture, while Tolkien’s universe evolved as he worked on LOTR, still he took the version that existed in The Hobbit
into consideration as he wrote. Taking a closer look at both works, I’m
beginning to think Legolas’ character may give us more of a glimpse into the
merry heart of Mirkwood that I first imagined.
Though displaying the reserve typical of Elves in general, I feel Legolas would
have been somewhat less restrained when among his own people, talking more and
laughing with them – especially in days before and after the events of LOTR. The Fellowship was
under a great deal of duress the whole time – what with the magnitude of the
importance (as well as the seeming impossibility) of the quest, the dangers
they faced, and the physical and emotional demands of the journey. If anything,
I think Legolas kept his spirits up better
than most of the others. He was the only one smiling on Caradhras
and at Helm his playful attitude belied the grisly nature of his contest with Gimli and disguised his deep concern for the Dwarf’s
safety. He exhibited enthusiastic fascination with Fangorn
forest and the ghostly army from the Paths of the Dead in spite of the perilous
nature of their mission at the time. And earlier, at the edge of the Golden
Wood, he tried to help the others get their minds off their sorrows by
encouraging them to wade across the refreshing stream of Nimrodel
and then telling them tales of Lothlórien.
More than once he counseled the others not to cast all hope away. Hmmm…Legolas the encourager?
Another instance where his attitude seemed almost lighthearted even in dire
circumstances occurred at the edge of Fangorn Forest. When the three
walkers discovered that Saruman’s appearance had
frightened away their horses leaving them stranded in dangerous territory, Gimli grumbled over the prospect of traversing many more
miles on foot. Legolas immediately saw the ironic humor in the Dwarf’s comment,
“’Only a few hours ago you were unwilling to sit on a horse of Rohan,’ laughed Legolas,’ You will
make a rider yet.’”
Though his elvish nature prevented Legolas from
expressing his affection for his friends as straightforwardly as his mortal
companions, still, he communicated his devotion in his own way. And I believe
that underneath the veneer of elvish reserve, his
personality was cheerful and optimistic.
Yes, to me Legolas seemed very self-assured and secure in his own identity –
not the usual hallmark of someone with a turbulent, unhappy past. So I
personally visualize him as having had a stable and happy childhood. (Besides,
since most of Tolkien’s Elves had such tragic
stories, I like to try to keep my vision of Legolas’ life happy as much as
possible!)
But that's just my opinion..
cuio mae
__________________
“Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are
doing,” said Legolas. TTT
From Rain
Re: Re: Legolas in Rivendell
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan
Elanor,
I am inclined to agree with you on the basis of my intuitional interpretation
of the text. Legolas' character does not "feel" like he has siblings.
He certainly never mentions anything which suggests them. And his behaviour in general I find to be akin to that of an only
child. ~His natural curiosity for things around him, often expressed with such
innocence. It is as if he has had no real mentor to explain and share such
things with him and has been left much to his own devices. I always felt his
life was probably a little lonely and himself a loner in the Woodland Realm.
But before everyone else starts screaming at me... remember, this is just MY interpretation. I think it
would be awfully convenient if Legolas' fan base were to discover he has LOTS
of brothers and sisters, and possibly even a twin... I can "hear" a certain Hobbit Maid laughing at
me from where I stand!
Makes sense...thinking of it, I do get the impression that Legolas is quite a
loner, though he demonstrates very strong feelings for his friends (not just Gimli). However, sometimes I get the feeling that if he
does have brothers/ sisters, they are much older than him (Legolas being the
youngest), such that he can avoid duties associated with being the son of a
king...Ok I'm rambling, but I do get that impression.
And
finally, and I'll shut up (though not for long) welcome Luthien U. As for you question
about Legolas' age, I have no idea really. I do believe that he's not young, but then not really
that old...I don't know if I could pick an age for him. I think one of the
things that fascinates me about Legolas is the fact
that he's so playful, which would make him relatively young, I guess. Anyway, nooo clue, I pass the Olympic torch to the others to bear,
and I'll rest by the side of the road
From Elanor Gamgee
The Club and a lil'bit
of Legolas
Dear
Friends,
My post may be brief and, probably, not very coherent. Please, forgive me. I'm
at work, I'm in haste and it's lunch time (there's no need to explain how
seriously we, hobbits, treat our meals, is there? Although I've already had my lunch).
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan
It is as if he has had no real mentor to explain and share such things with him
and has been left much to his own devices. I always felt his life was probably
a little lonely and himself a loner in the Woodland Realm. But before everyone
else starts screaming at me... remember, this is just MY interpretation. I think it
would be awfully convenient if Legolas' fan base were to discover he has LOTS
of brothers and sisters, and possibly even a twin... I can "hear" a certain Hobbit Maid laughing at
me from where I stand!
Morgan, I fully agree with you about the loneliness, IIRC
Rain shares our mind on that. Whenever I read LoTR it would
always strike me how much affection Legolas actually feels for his friends (not
only Gimly, I agree). BTW, one more observation - he
never displays his affection openly;
usually it's disguised by irony (more or less mild). IMHO it's rather clear
indication of a lonely and not very happy childhood; a child who feels unloved
would hardly know how to demonstrate warm feelings.
Re:siblings and age -
Morgan, please, you know that it's strictly non-canonical As Legolas being the only child - I just had some personal
reasons for that. I made his parents marry late (after the war of the Last
Alliance), and I made their marriage rather stormy. Considering certain perculiarities of Elvish
family life (do not conceive children in times of trouble), the most likely
time for Legolas to be born is during the Watchful Peace IMHO. All by itself it
gives us a range of some 400 years, so by the time of the War of the Ring
Legolas could be (roughly) between 1000 and 600 yrs of age.
From Morgan
quote:
My
question to all of you now is how old do you believe Legolas really was during
the War of the Ring and why? I doubt that I should take PJ's
2,931 years as gospel.
There are penalties on this thread for taking PJ's
conceptions as gospel!
There are infinite arguments on this subject and I have seen speculation
beginning at 60-100yrs ( because he is not mentioned at The Battle of the Five
Armies and was either not born or still a child ) up to 3000yrs plus inc. an
assumption of his active particpation in The Last
Alliance of Elves and Men.
But the passage that always stuck in my mind and contributed to my personal
guess was this one. (approx. quote)
"Five hundred times have the leaves fallen in the forest since then and
that seems but a little while to us."
From this quote, I could never imagine Legolas being less than 500yrs old and
my personal guess would be closer to a thousand. Below is a link to a thread
started last year on the subject. Many variant
opinions are expressed and supported with strong logic.
http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/...048&erreid=3959
Here is also a relevent article by Micahael Martinez.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517
But
one of the beauties of knowing so little about the specific details surrounding
Legolas' life is that as readers, we are free to build a story of our own and
fashion it to our personal liking. IMHO, therein lies most of the fun!
__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the
life that is waiting for us."
From Morgan
Elanor,
Next time you say "short post" I'm just going to laugh.
quote:
Whenever
I read LoTR it would always strike me how much
affection Legolas actually feels for his friends (not only Gimly,
I agree). BTW, one more observation - he never displays his affection openly; usually it's disguised by irony
(more or less mild).
Good observation. I had never previously thought of it in that way. As I have
said before, I tend to process things intuitively rather than intellectually.
Legolas certainly demonstrates the ability to express deep caring but it never
evolves into physical expression. I wonder to whom he might have felt
comfortable bearing his soul. The closest we ever get to this is when he
alludes to the awakening of his sea-longing.
From Luthien Undomiel
Yes!
I totally agree with your interpretations of his age being less than 1000 yrs
and perhaps more than 500. I always thought of him as a youngish Elf. I wonder
if he ever found his melethril?
From
Kirinki54
quote:
Originally posted by Luthien Undomiel
Yes! I totally agree with your interpretations of his age being less than 1000
yrs and perhaps more than 500. I always thought of him as a youngish Elf. I
wonder if he ever found his melethril ?
Yes! Me agree also...
But... please enlighten me on the melethril part.
What is that?
There could be more smilies
expressing questioning/confusion.
God knows I need them often!
__________________
'They need more gardens,' said Legolas. 'The houses are dead, and there is too
little here that grows and is glad. If Aragorn comes into his
own, the people of the Wood shall bring him birds that sing and trees
that do not die.'
From Luthien Undomiel
quote:
Originally posted by Kirinki:
But... please enlighten me on the melethril part. What is that?
IIRC melethril is the Sindarin word for beloved (fem). I was just wondering if
Legolas ever found that special Elf.
From Morgan
Re: Re:Strange and unique friendship
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
I see the Elves as deeply private people, so I don’t think that there was a
lot of soul baring done among them anyway. If they were married then perhaps to their spouse, otherwise rarely
and only to the closest of friends or family. They were so intuitive
about sensing others’ mental and emotional state that maybe they felt they
didn’t need to put things into words...
Ithildin,
This is exactly how I perceived the Elves to be,
though we should know, shouldn't we I get the sense that much exchange of thought and feeling
took place via empathy. Though I still detect slight
differences in Legolas' behaviour, which I attribute
to my theory of his early years being lonely.
__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the
life that is waiting for us."
From Morgan
Melethril
quote:
Originally posted by Luthien Undomiel
IIRC melethril is the Sindarin word for
beloved (fem). I was just wondering if Legolas ever found that special Elf.
Luthien,
Well if he hasn't, he's been single for well over 7000yrs now and is probably
cursing Elven chastity!
From Luthien Undomiel
Re: Melethril
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan
Luthien,
Well if he hasn't, he's been single for well over 7000yrs now and is probably
cursing Elven chastity!
...being chaste for well over 7000 yrs. How'd you come
up with that figure Morgan?
This is one reason I love Legolas so much. He is a combination of Elvish wisdom and comparitive innocence. There are so many things his eyes
have seen, and yet so much more that he hasn't yet experienced. The world is
his playground and the discovery of new things brings him a lot of joy. He's
sometimes like (an extremely old) little boy!
But that's just one aspect of his mysterious, many-faceted character that we do
so love to analyse.
__________________
Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.
Nai elyë hiruva.
From Ithildin
quote:
Originally posted by Luthien Undomiel
This is one reason I love Legolas so much. He is a combination of Elvish wisdom and comparitive innocence. There are so many things his eyes
have seen, and yet so much more that he hasn't yet experienced. The world is
his playground and the discovery of new things brings him a lot of joy. He's
sometimes like (an extremely old) little boy!
But that's just one aspect of his mysterious, many-faceted character that we do
so love to analyse.
Well said! I concur!
From Elanor Gamgee
Elvish emotions and Legolas
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
...Personally, I got the impression that Elves in general were just not very demonstrative folk –not a lot
of bear hugs and back slapping among them; they were just not a “cuddly” sort
of people. I haven’t exactly researched it yet (so I’m sure others can point
out lots of examples of exceptions!) but I pictured Tolkien’s
Elves being rather restrained in displaying emotions under most circumstances.
(Not talking about crisis-type situations here.)
When I first read The Hobbit I thought the Elves of Rivendell
were depicted as being lighthearted to the point of being a little silly and
the Woodelves’ continuous partying and boisterous
behavior really clashed with the image I had of Elves after reading LOTR and parts of the Silmarillion.
The disparity was due to Tolkien’s continuous
evolution of his vision of Middle-earth and its peoples, I know. Of course, in
The Hobbit, times were a little
happier – and by the end of the story Middle-earth had been given a reprieve
from evil – the shadow lifted for a time. In LOTR the
story never actually takes you back into Mirkwood,
and the Elves which you encounter at Rivendell and Lórien fully realized the gravity of the situation facing
Middle-earth at the time of the quest. Impending war on home territory does
have a dampening effect on the emotions of most civilized peoples. (I think
back to 9/11/2001 and I can identify…)
And what they were facing amounted to the prospect of total annihilation. So,
it’s possible my impression of their generally serious nature is colored by the
somewhat darker tone of LOTR.
So, all that said, for myself, I visualized Elves in
general to be fairly reserved, dignified and composed by nature, therefore
Legolas displaying those traits would not necessarily
be a symptom of unhappy past or loneliness, just part of his elvishness. At least that’s my take on it.
Ithildin,
Thank you for the wonderful topic! It made me think through my own assumption,
and I'd like to share my conclusions with you.
I believe that elvish emotions is an extremely complicated issue. As I see, it's
at least threefold - feelings, as they are perceived
by Elves themselves; feelings as they are demonstrated
by Elves and, finally, Elvish emotions as seen by
other races. To make the matter worse, everything is evolving in time (i.e.
Elves of the Silmarillion are different from the
Elves of LoTR, regardless development of Tolkien mythos).
As for Elvish emotionality, my opinion has always
been that Elves, though by no means "touchy-feely" or
"cuddly", are extremely emotional people; their feelings are deeper
and stronger than feelings of Humans. I’m afraid we can’t avoid discussing
crisis situations here, precisely because a crisis can serve a touchstone of a
person’s emotional stability. As I can see, Elves react to difficult situations
very strongly, quite often to a point when they simply become unable to make
rational decisions. Examples galore: Feanor’s behaviour after the death of Finwe,
Fingofin’s challenge to Morghoth
after the defeat at Dagor Bragollach,
even Thingol’s reaction to Beren
asking him for the hand of Luthien.
The way the Elves choose to demonstrate their feelings does not make the issue
much easier As you mentioned in your earlier
post,
quote:
They
were so intuitive about sensing others’ mental and emotional state that maybe
they felt they didn’t need to put things into words. Perhaps that’s what made
Legolas’ friendship with Gimli so special – they were
able to cut across those cultural boundaries and just talk.
I totally agree that the Elves, being incredibly intuitive, did not need much talk in order to convey their
feelings. However, “being above of all skilled in words”, as Tolkien puts it, the Elves would make speech and expression
of their strong and deep emotions an art form. In other words, the Elves would
speak up not because they could not get by otherwise (in fact, they could) but
because speaking precisely and beautifully was something they excelled at, and
greatly enjoyed.
BTW, this could be something that attracted Legolas to Gimli
even more – the Dwarf’s ability to express his feelings eloquently and
beautifully. Remember his words when Gimli had given
account to his friend about wonders of the Caves of Aglarond,
“you move me, Gimli. … I have never heard you speak
like this before. Almost you make me regret that I have not seen those caves.”
IMHO the Elves were also quite prone to express their feelings through poetry
and song. A good example, I think, is Legolas’ song of the sea, and lament for
Gandalf, which the Elves of Lorien sing.
Elves, being immortal, would greatly differ from other races of Middle-earth in
their perception of time. It might be the reason why the Elves are so often
regarded as remote – they simply cannot pay as much attention to the fleeting
events as do the mortal races.
I would fully agree that the Elves in LoTR are indeed
reserved and sad, and the reason for it, apart from the inevitable stress of
impending crash of their civilization in Middle-earth, could be numerous
personal tragedies as well. Whoever of the “older generation” of the Elves is
mentioned (Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn, Thranduil, Gildor) – everyone has
very tragic past; it would inevitably contribute to sadness.
The question is, however, if the sadness is an inherent Elvish quality. I don’t quite think so. We can recall
Tolkien’s description of Glorfindel,
“… his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy…”;
later on Tolkien explains (in his essay “Glorfindel”, HoME XII) that after
his resurrection Glorfindel “had returned to the
primitive innocence of the First-born”. During their sojourn in Valinor the Elves did not seem very sad either; on the
contrary, everything in their life was a source of joy for them – the teaching
of the Valar, and their own labour,
be it development of their language or ship-building or making of Silmarills.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
But going back to the Woodelves’ culture, while Tolkien’s universe evolved as he worked on LOTR, still he took the version that existed in The Hobbit
into consideration as he wrote. Taking a closer look at both works, I’m beginning
to think Legolas’ character may give us more of a glimpse into the merry heart
of Mirkwood that I first imagined.
Though displaying the reserve typical of Elves in general, I feel Legolas would
have been somewhat less restrained when among his own people, talking more and
laughing with them – especially in days before and after the events of LOTR. The Fellowship was
under a great deal of duress the whole time – what with the magnitude of the
importance (as well as the seeming impossibility) of the quest, the dangers
they faced, and the physical and emotional demands of the journey. If anything,
I think Legolas kept his spirits up better
than most of the others. He was the only one smiling on Caradhras
and at Helm his playful attitude belied the grisly nature of his contest with Gimli and disguised his deep concern for the Dwarf’s
safety. He exhibited enthusiastic fascination with Fangorn
forest and the ghostly army from the Paths of the Dead in spite of the perilous
nature of their mission at the time. And earlier, at the edge of the Golden
Wood, he tried to help the others get their minds off their sorrows by
encouraging them to wade across the refreshing stream of Nimrodel
and then telling them tales of Lothlórien.
More than once he counseled the others not to cast all hope away. Hmmm…Legolas the encourager?
Another instance where his attitude seemed almost lighthearted even in dire
circumstances occurred at the edge of Fangorn Forest. When the three
walkers discovered that Saruman’s appearance had
frightened away their horses leaving them stranded in dangerous territory, Gimli grumbled over the prospect of traversing many more
miles on foot. Legolas immediately saw the ironic humor in the Dwarf’s comment,
“’Only a few hours ago you were unwilling to sit on a horse of Rohan,’ laughed Legolas,’ You will
make a rider yet.’”
Though his elvish nature prevented Legolas from
expressing his affection for his friends as straightforwardly as his mortal
companions, still, he communicated his devotion in his own way. And I believe
that underneath the veneer of elvish reserve, his
personality was cheerful and optimistic.
You know, Ithildin, the funny thing is that I agree
with most of your conclusions. Difference in our opinions would lie in the points of
departure. I would say that Legolas, as I see him, expresses these primeval Elvish qualities – an insatiable
desire for knowledge and beauty; and light-hearted joy. It can make sense if we
assume that he is relatively young; besides, Elvish realm in Mirkwood
was relatively sheltered Elvish community, and maybe,
Silvan Elves managed indeed keep “the primeval Elvish spirit” better that troubled and sad Exiles.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithildin
Yes, to me Legolas seemed very self-assured and secure in his own identity –
not the usual hallmark of someone with a turbulent, unhappy past. So I
personally visualize him as having had a stable and happy childhood. (Besides,
since most of Tolkien’s Elves had such tragic
stories, I like to try to keep my vision of Legolas’ life happy as much as
possible!)
Oh yes, by all means! Legolas less than anyone seems
to suffer from the lack of self-esteem. I wonder, however, if this can be explained by his social
standing, rather than happy family circumstances. He was, at any rate, an
Elf-prince, accustomed to command and to be obeyed. (An indirect proof of this
can be the fact that Legolas cannon really handle contradictions. If we remember the first encounter with Eomer
in Rohan, when Legolas immediately takes to arms
without any attempt to smooth down the situation.)
But, as you say, and I’d like to repeat, that’s just my opinion
__________________
...we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make
From Morgan
Re: Elvish
emotions and Legolas
quote:
Originally posted by Elanor Gamgee
Elves, being immortal, would greatly differ from other races of
Middle-earth in their perception of time. It might be the reason why the Elves
are so often regarded as remote – they simply cannot pay as much attention to
the fleeting events as do the mortal races.
I couldn't agree more Elanor. I also wonder if much
of their emotional expression is not tied up in telepathy. They do not need to
"say" how they feel because these emotions are absorbed and
communicated empathically. Being timeless would certainly make one incredibly
introspective.
quote:
I
would fully agree that the Elves in LoTR are indeed
reserved and sad, and the reason for it, apart from the inevitable stress of
impending crash of their civilization in Middle-earth, could be numerous
personal tragedies as well. Whoever of the “older generation” of the Elves is
mentioned (Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn, Thranduil, Gildor) – everyone has
very tragic past; it would inevitably contribute to sadness.
The question is, however, if the sadness is an inherent Elvish quality. I don’t quite think so. During their
sojourn in Valinor the Elves did not seem very sad
either; on the contrary, everything in their life was a source of joy for them
– the teaching of the Valar, and their own labour, be it development of their language or
ship-building or making of Silmarills.
Remembering Bilbo and the Dwarves' first meeting with the Elves of Mirkwood, they certainly did not appear to be a sombre or sad folk. Infact I
would venture to say that they seemed a little too merry I do not know how many individuals in Thranduil's
Realm would have been left from the "older generation" as you say,
but the majority of the Elven King's people seemed
mirthful in spite of the shadow that hung over their forest. To my mind, these
are certainly not Elves who are mired in melancholy.
__________________
"We must be willing to relinquish the life we planned, so as to have the
life that is waiting for us."
